Author Topic: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine  (Read 12384 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tomhb

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 326
1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« on: September 26, 2010, 01:13:31 PM »
Not that I'm interested in the challenge, but I saw a little Suzuki Alto drive past me the other day and I noticed how small they are. In many ways, they tick all the boxes of the original Mini brief - small, light, cheap family transport. They're the cheapest car on the market I think and using the 'scratch your head and frown' measuring system, I reckon they'd be about the same length too.

Anyway, that got me thinking about engine conversions. I'm no believer in putting a 2.0L Honda turbo into a Mini or Moke, because it's just not in the spirit of things I don't think. But, as I couldn't find any good information on the Suzuki Alto engine, I started looking at similarly sized city cars. The Toyota 1KR-FE engine is used in the Toyota Aygo/Citroën C1/Peugeot 107 and only weighs 69kg (including all ancillaries (half the weight of an A Series (c. 155kg)). It also produces a respectable 50kw and has a 5sp gearbox geared for 110km/hr on the highway (apparently top speed is 158km/hr in Peugeot 107 guise).

Toyota reliability - can't go wrong right? It's probably really quiet too :D and it's definitely 'in the spirit of things'!

Thoughts?

« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 01:18:12 PM by tomhb »
TomHB

1976 Land Rover Series III - runs but doesn't steer - long term project
1971 Leyland Moke 998cc - runs and registered - pet project
1998 Toyota Camry V6 - tow car/town car/work car/highway car

.

  • Past or Inactive member
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 5893
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2010, 09:18:11 PM »
for me it sounds ok,
but if you change the engine go for the best...and a small Toyota engine is just a modern moke engine...
Go fast engine will put a bigger smile on the face and it will never go away. With the small Toyota engine it will boar fast...

thats my 2cent's

mavro

Tim

  • Standard
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 3882
  • Location: Hobart, Tas
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2010, 09:23:19 PM »
Everything I've read about that engine is positive. There are some photos if you google for them. Only problem is, where do you get one? There aren't many (any?) of those models sold in Australia, and the half cut importers aren't bringing them in.

Tim
1951 Morris Commercial J Type Van
1955 BSA C11G
1961 Morris Mini Traveller
1969 Triumph TR6R
1977 Leyland Moke Californian

Driving a Moke with a hardtop is like having a shower in a raincoat.

tomhb

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 326
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2010, 10:25:08 PM »
... a small Toyota engine is just a modern moke engine...
Go fast engine will put a bigger smile on the face and it will never go away.

Precisely! It's a 3-Cyl miser which is totally what would be used if a Moke were being built new today.
As for the go-fast option, I think 50 odd KW is still a pretty good upgrade from a bog standard 1100cc A Series  ;)
Plus, it's almost begging to be put in - it's so small! Not like the V-Tech conversions which really ought to have a flip front or a grille extension.

Everything I've read about that engine is positive. Only problem is, where do you get one?

I think we'll be getting the Peugeot 107 eventually? Could be wrong. The Toyota Aygo is due to arrive next year or 2012. At 69kg though, the shipping would be relatively cheap ex. Japan. Expats send back more stuff than that when they move back from the UK!

It won three or four International Engine of the Year Awards in a row. It's small, light, economical, reliable and packs a mighty punch for its size. It's a shame the Choke is reportedly so poor compared to real Mokes - if they got their act together and used better manufacturing processes, it could be the beginning of a little Moke kit car industry. My understanding is that low volume kit car manufacturers are exempt from most ADRs / testing, hence the Locost Clubmans and pseudo-AC Cobras which get around.
TomHB

1976 Land Rover Series III - runs but doesn't steer - long term project
1971 Leyland Moke 998cc - runs and registered - pet project
1998 Toyota Camry V6 - tow car/town car/work car/highway car

tomhb

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 326
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2010, 10:29:01 PM »
Also, according to http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/FE6C58BDF8F0D155CA257544000751A7 the Aygo will weigh 890kg, 200+ more than a Moke - power to weight sounding better and better.
TomHB

1976 Land Rover Series III - runs but doesn't steer - long term project
1971 Leyland Moke 998cc - runs and registered - pet project
1998 Toyota Camry V6 - tow car/town car/work car/highway car

mattsmadmini

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 867
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 11:52:44 PM »
Quote from: random goauto site
Before a facelift late last year, there was also a 40kW/130Nm 1.4-litre four-cylinder turbo-diesel powerplant capable of averaging 4.1L/100km, but that has been discontinued in the Toyota model.

mmmmmmm 130Nm would be fun.....

5 speed manual.... cruising and hell, 4.1L/100km!!!

nice...
I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness

1967 Moke - Sanchez (made it to wagga and back...)

bnicho

  • Standard
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *
  • "Why don’t all cars have no doors? When I come to power I’m going to make it a rule, because this is just better!" - Jeremy Clarkson.

  • 2242
  • Personal Text
    Sell my Moke? I'd rather sit on a cactus!
  • Location: Greendale, VIC.
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2010, 10:35:42 AM »
Why have three pots and 50kw when you can have more?  I'd only have three pots if it had a turbo attached a la CB70/CB80 Charade GTTi.  :)

But there is one thing that scares me about import engines - getting parts in a few years when they dry up in Japan. 

Hence I've been looking at the 1NZ-FE from the Yaris/Echo 1.5.  It's compact has 80kw and 141nm of torque.  That's better than all but the hottest of 1275 A series engines.  Plus there will always be parts available for Yaris and Echo. 

If you want Diesel (and why not?) then the 4cyl BINI Diesel powerplant was used in the Yaris in Japan.  So it's probably compact enough for use in Moke and will start trickling into the importers sometime soon. 

Cheers,
Brett Nicholson (bnicho)
1971 Morris Moke - Mopoke
1965 BMC Mini Diesel Tractor
1965 Morris Mini Traveller - Trixie
1966 Austin Mini Super Deluxe - Audrey
1973 Land Rover S3 88 inch - Gilbert
2007 Land Rover Freelander 2
2013 Toyota Prado

Noddy

  • Past or Inactive member
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 340
  • Personal Text
    Why are there so many nuts and bolts left??
  • Location: JHB/Pretoria
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2010, 06:22:23 PM »
I would not worry about japanese parts drying up. If you cant get from the manufacturer there will alway be hight quality pirate parts available. You still get genuine parts for 30+ year old toyotas
Mokes and Tiger Moths are the same, wherever they stop, they mark their teritory!

tomhb

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 326
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2010, 06:27:50 PM »
They're currently building 300,000 vehicles (in various guises; Peugeot/Citroen/Toyota) a year - so it can't ever be too bad.

Anyway, it was just food for thought.
TomHB

1976 Land Rover Series III - runs but doesn't steer - long term project
1971 Leyland Moke 998cc - runs and registered - pet project
1998 Toyota Camry V6 - tow car/town car/work car/highway car

.

  • Past or Inactive member
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 5893
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2010, 07:58:45 PM »
how much work is it to do it ?
how hard is it to be checked and aproved by the state gov. were you live
I mean a more modern engine would be a hell of a lot better then the 40 year old design.
But is it more trubble then its worth ?

dont know, you tell me..


mavro

bnicho

  • Standard
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *
  • "Why don’t all cars have no doors? When I come to power I’m going to make it a rule, because this is just better!" - Jeremy Clarkson.

  • 2242
  • Personal Text
    Sell my Moke? I'd rather sit on a cactus!
  • Location: Greendale, VIC.
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2010, 10:04:32 PM »
I would not worry about japanese parts drying up. If you cant get from the manufacturer there will alway be hight quality pirate parts available. You still get genuine parts for 30+ year old toyotas

Hi,

I have two old Toyotas that were never meant to be in Aus, and my mother worked for Toyota in engineering for 15 years.  So I have a bit of knowledge on this. 

Basic service parts are generally not a problem and items like pistons rings and bearings are always easy to get.  It's the odd electronic bits and small forgotten pieces that are hard to get.

For example, I cannot get a timing chain slipper for the 18RG twin cam engine in my JDM Corona Hardtop anywhere.  Also, the front brake pads took nine weeks to arrive from Japan as they are unique to that car and the Celica GT.  I cannot get any non-genuine ones at all.

Similarly, my MR2 is one of the first ones sold in the USA, and has a unique airflow meter and throttle position sensor, used on that model only, when factory cruise control was fitted. 

My local Toyota dealer is useless for import parts, it's all too hard.  I have to order unique parts from a dealer in Sydney via a contact that is willing to help. 

All I'm saying, is if you choose an engine for a conversion, make sure you can get all the bits you might need.  Imagine ten years later having a non-running car just because you can't get a certain sensor.  :(

I can't decide on the conversion question myself. 

On one hand the engineering challenge behind a conversion appeals and it provides modern car economy, drivability and reliability. 

On the other hand, unless a rod is poking out the block or similar major disaster, an A-series running carbs will usually limp all the way home.A breakdown in a modern car usually means a tow-truck is needed. 

Oh the irony.  To carry the family safely around in Aus I rely on a modern 4x4.  Yet if I was travelling from Vladivostock to London, I'd prefer the Moke or Beetle.  Both are more likely to break down than my modern Nissan.  But I know I could fix most things at the roadside.  :)

Cheers,
Brett Nicholson (bnicho)
1971 Morris Moke - Mopoke
1965 BMC Mini Diesel Tractor
1965 Morris Mini Traveller - Trixie
1966 Austin Mini Super Deluxe - Audrey
1973 Land Rover S3 88 inch - Gilbert
2007 Land Rover Freelander 2
2013 Toyota Prado

Tim

  • Standard
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 3882
  • Location: Hobart, Tas
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2010, 10:11:12 PM »
how much work is it to do it ?
how hard is it to be checked and aproved by the state gov. were you live
I mean a more modern engine would be a hell of a lot better then the 40 year old design.
But is it more trubble then its worth ?

dont know, you tell me..


mavro

Most (all?) states have fairly strict requirements for doing these conversions and generally require you to get an independent engineer to approve the conversion. Typically modern engines are longer than Moke engines, they usually have the gearbox on the end rather than underneath, so typically the subframe requires a lot of modification and often the front sheet metal has to be chopped too. Unless you can do most of the work yourself it needs to be worth it before you'd consider doing it. Typically conversions are done for big power gains, however there are other advantages including fuel economy, improved reliability and quieter smoother running, that modern engines offer.

The holy grail is to find an engine that will pretty much drop straight in without major modifications. If this little motor could do that then the cost will be considerably reduced and presumably there wouldn't be the requirement for expensive brake improvements that have to be done with big motors, so there's another saving.

If it can be done without major work then its worth doing. If its going to be expensive then Brett is right and it would be better to go for a bigger motor. The 1KR-FE won International Engine of the Year in the under 1L category for the last 4 years. There is a turbo kit for it that will put out about 85 BHP

Tim
1951 Morris Commercial J Type Van
1955 BSA C11G
1961 Morris Mini Traveller
1969 Triumph TR6R
1977 Leyland Moke Californian

Driving a Moke with a hardtop is like having a shower in a raincoat.

tomhb

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 326
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 10:47:40 PM »
On the other hand, unless a rod is poking out the block or similar major disaster, an A-series running carbs will usually limp all the way home....if I was travelling from Vladivostock to London, I'd prefer the Moke or Beetle.  Both are more likely to break down than my modern Nissan.

Agreed. I'm looking at doing the Mongol Rally (London to Ulaan Bataar in sub 1L cars) and it's frustrating that the Mongolian Govt has recently mandated cars be 10 years or younger - because that means EFI! On a trip like that, a simple carby set up is guaranteed to malfunction, but you're guaranteed to be able to fix it ... somehow. Fuel, air and spark and enough oil to keep it all turning is all you need in an engine, but newer cars complicate it too much.

I'd love to see one of these engines in the flesh - the local Toyota dealer might be put off by a windswept Moke driver turning up with a tape measure, but I reckon this engine might well be the Mini/Moke engine conversion holy grail - so long as you see it as a reliability/economy/mild performance upgrade, and not a track day upgrade.
TomHB

1976 Land Rover Series III - runs but doesn't steer - long term project
1971 Leyland Moke 998cc - runs and registered - pet project
1998 Toyota Camry V6 - tow car/town car/work car/highway car

tomhb

  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 326
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 10:50:43 PM »
If this little motor could do that then the cost will be considerably reduced and presumably there wouldn't be the requirement for expensive brake improvements that have to be done with big motors, so there's another saving.

What is the actual rule on brakes? I know that when you put a 1275 engine into a Mini or Moke, you need discs, but is it based on engine capacity/total power/power to weight ratio? I have a Land Rover Series III 2.25L Petrol and it has 4 wheel drums too. And, you can cheerfully tune an 1100 to put out as much power as a stock 1275, so where and why do they draw the line?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 11:04:26 PM by tomhb »
TomHB

1976 Land Rover Series III - runs but doesn't steer - long term project
1971 Leyland Moke 998cc - runs and registered - pet project
1998 Toyota Camry V6 - tow car/town car/work car/highway car

JiMoke

  • Past or Inactive member
  • Registered Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 262
Re: 1KR-FE Toyota Engine
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 11:01:15 PM »
Hi guys,

I've been looking at this donk for a while now, but they seem to be hard to come buy.  Anyone found anyone that can get them?

Cheers,
Jim