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Author Topic: Moke Gearbox, what to check?  (Read 517 times)

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Halfpint

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Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« on: April 07, 2020, 09:55:12 PM »
A few years ago I was lucky enough to head of on a Moke Road Trip with my Son who just got his "L's".
We visited some good friends along the way, one of which was Newie.
It was a top visit. Not all was Moke related conversation, as it should be, and was.
But one question came up as we went into the shed.
Just like most of our sheds, Newie had a few spares laying around.
There was a gearbox, and even though it was pretty wrapped up and covered, He rightly so was concerned whether it was in a serviceable condition to use. I had a quick look, it looked ok, but I didnt and couldnt really say exactly why in the 30 seconds I looked at it.
We mostly all have a spare box Im sure .
It has bothered me since that day that I didnt give him some pointers, and Ive learnt a lot since, both about the Box and also how to explain it.
As I built my last gearbox, I took some picks.
Im no expert, nor try to be, but love having a go and learnt lots from some great people here amongst us.

Firstly, and easily is the Gear teeth, if there not there, its not a good start  ;D

But seriuosly, where do we look for wear?

In our work shop manuals we have all the answers, but you have have to know where to look.

Im going to start this discussion thread with clearances in the Baulk rings. The Baulk rings help us slow the gears so we can change them.

This is the second gear, and the baulk ring is laying flat on the bench.


The Baulk ring mates onto the taper on the gear, and as it wears, the face close to the gears closes up.



So this is the gap to measure with some feeler guages.



And in the box looks like this




Another spot is here


.060" is a good new start, .030" is somewhere you should look at a rebuild.



Obviously this isnt the only thing to look for, but is a good start in my opinion.
Have a look peoples, as complicated as these things are, we can find some simple checks Im sure  ;) ;)


« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:03:51 PM by Halfpint »
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SaharaDust

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2020, 06:46:53 AM »
Hello HP great idea for a thread I am fairly sure this is an element of our Moke that perhaps some people (me) are unsure about

Cheers


Steam

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2020, 04:41:29 PM »
To start with perhaps we should ask why the box in question is not attached to an engine.
If it was removed and rebuilt then that is self evident that the box should be good.
If it is unknown why it is not on an engine that would suggest a problem.
If an engine had issues then the box will also be suspect and need close examimation. All the debris or metal will end up at the bottom of the box.
But do not fotget that a box can last a long time even with issues.
Cheers Dave.
Cheers, Dave

Halfpint

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2020, 05:58:24 PM »
Me to SD, I just thought it might be helpfull to have some clues of what to look for.

Good questions to ask yourself Dave.
Ive come across some from people emptying sheds of stuff that they thought might be usefull..... one day!
And a broken diff from someone who didnt have any skills to repair, or a crashed Moke. These bits can come from all sorts of different scenarios.

If you have a good check, chime in and share.

Cheers
HP
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Terry

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2020, 06:31:12 PM »
Hi,

another reason for their not being an engine on a gearbox could have nothing to do with the gearbox but that the engine was required for some other purpose and the gearbox itself could be fine.

I have a gearbox to rebuild here in the next week or so so I will try and remember to take some pictures along the way.

This particular gearbox I am going in to replace the 3rd/4th selector fork that has been worn off due to the weight of an extension on the gearstick and it also being used as an arm rest! I will dismantle most things to make sure there is no signs of the brass filings that are all through the box and check the lay gear for wear.

Terry 

13: "I am the scariest number."
666: "No, I am the scariest number."
2020: "Hold my beer and watch this."

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Newie

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2020, 02:05:10 PM »

It has bothered me since that day that I didnt give him some pointers, and Ive learnt a lot since, both about the Box and also how to explain it.


Firstly HP, I have to apologise for the years of regret and sleepless nights I've caused you  ;D (sincerely hope it wasn't quite that bad  ;)).

I still have the box there (attached to an 1100 motor which I split temporarily for your inspection) and I have to admit that it is still untouched since your visit. You did help more than you recall though, as you pointed out that the box and engine had obviously been dismantled, cleaned up and reassembled (possibly/hopefully replacing worn parts in the process), but appeared to have been reassembled with the aim to keep it all together rather than being fully restored, as locktabs, etc had not been set.

Plans are to eventually have somebody who knows what they are doing, disassemble and rebuild both the engine and box. The more I know about its condition before I do that, the better though. I'll have to split it off the engine again and carry out the checks when I get a chance.

Great idea for a thread as others have said and hopefully, the few on here that are knowledgable about such things will go to the trouble to contribute to the discussion.


Drakman

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2020, 06:05:52 PM »
This thread is a great idea, perhaps  a series of threads like this covering some of the more involved Moke issues?

Disclaimer,  I am NOT what i would called qualified to give advice on rebuilding a Moke gearbox, i have rebuilt one or two over the years and i do stress years.

Over the last 45 odd years i have built quite a few gearboxes (Holden etc, you know real cars)

One thing that sticks in my mind is that most seem to suffer from failed, lay/cluster gear/shaft bearings.  I have put this down to lubrication issues, lack of oil getting into the lay gear bearings.    So with my Moke i used a die grinder to open up the oil reservoirs that feed oil into the these bearings.  If you look closely into the box where the lay shaft sits you will see the small square cavities that are supposed to feed oil to these bearings, i open these up and grind channels into the gearbox casing for the returning oil to run down into them.  I also grind all the casting spew marks out of the bottom of the sump, to help all the oil to run out when i change the oil.

The other thing i will always do is fit a windage tray between the gear set and crankshaft.

That's my 2 cents spent.



Newie

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2020, 09:33:03 PM »
Thanks Drak,

Be assured your experience makes you far more qualified to comment than some of us ....

I get the basic idea that the windage tray effectively separates the gearbox from the engine and presumably keeps the oil around the crank/bottom end of the engine a bit longer, but I get a bit nervous when changing something as significant as oil flow in the engine and gearbox from what the engineers intended. Not doubting it's a good idea, but would you mind elaborating on what purpose the windage tray serves?

 

Halfpint

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2020, 10:37:39 PM »
Firstly HP, I have to apologise for the years of regret and sleepless nights I've caused you  ;D (sincerely hope it wasn't quite that bad  ;)).
I can assure you that several sessions with my electrical psychologist ( the shed Fridge  :) ), I was ok. It just made me wonder how we could check it, and where to check.

This particular gearbox I am going in to replace the 3rd/4th selector fork that has been worn off
Thats would be awsome Terry, thanks. What are the symptoms the owner has/had?  I can imagine the shifting issue and selecting, but some of us may not.

Over the last 45 odd years i have built quite a few gearboxes (Holden etc, you know real cars)
Sorry to hear that Dave, maybe you could make use of my councilor  ;D and rectify the way of thinking , happy to have you drop in , just need a bit of notice  ;).
HP

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Drakman

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2020, 11:10:16 PM »
Hi Newie, 

In a previous life i worked for GMH experimental engineering in the engine dyno dept, down in Fishermans Bend Vic.  I remember doing months of oil testing, flow, temp and oil return, the engines were fitted with perspex sumps, so see through.  From my experience in those days i would always use a windage tray and a scraper if it could be fitted. ( can't fit one in a moke engine).

I'm not trying to keep oil near the crank, actually I'm trying to keep the oil off the crank and in the sump/gearbox.  I don't want oil being thrown up off the gear set into the path of the crank.  I can't say if the windage tray helps with oil surge or oil temperature but it can't hurt.

I  clean up or polish all the oil return paths in the head all the way down to the bottom of the sump.  Did i mention that i am a little crazy?

Thanks HP, is the councillor Female, i have more luck with female shrinks but they all seem to lack a sense of humour.  Does your councillor still practice "water Boarding"?  I do believe now i have been fully indoctrinated into Moke life, i even find myself sitting in the green beast at night talking to it

Cheers
Dave

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2020, 10:43:12 AM »
On inspection/dismantle - i replace oil pick up with a centre one, if i cant get any of the little bits of swarf off the mesh or if the mesh just feels wonky i replace the whole pick up.. I haven't modded the oil feeds to laygear before this but i will have to have a look now thanks Drakman.

Terry

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2020, 02:31:56 PM »
Hp,

the symptom is that it struggles to stay in 4th gear which to my reasoning is that the fork is worn enough to not allow the gear to be pushed far enough over to engage the indent ball/springs and lock it into place, and thus you lean on the gear shift more just to keep it in 4th gear.

Terry

13: "I am the scariest number."
666: "No, I am the scariest number."
2020: "Hold my beer and watch this."

Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Terry

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2020, 06:10:03 PM »
Hi,

I received a call for help today with a gearbox reassembly. Someone else has dismantled it and the person trying to put it back together gets to the manual where it says 'refit in reverse order they were removed!' So for anyone who gets to this situation this is what i saw when i looked inside a gearbox.

The tab with the chamfer on both sides goes in the middle and the single champer piece goes on top.



Terry
13: "I am the scariest number."
666: "No, I am the scariest number."
2020: "Hold my beer and watch this."

Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Terry

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2020, 07:05:29 PM »
Hi,

something else to check for in the gearbox is anything that is broken. :)





Terry
13: "I am the scariest number."
666: "No, I am the scariest number."
2020: "Hold my beer and watch this."

Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Terry

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Re: Moke Gearbox, what to check?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2020, 01:20:51 PM »
Hi,

doing some research on the Minispares UK website on my bitzy box and keep coming across this little warning that is worth knowing..

Quote
If you are about to undertake a gearbox strip down and you are using an old Haynes manual beware. When locking the gearbox into 2 gears to undo the large mainshaft and Ist motion nuts, lock your gears into 1st and 4th. NOT 2nd and 3rd as stated in Haynes manual as you could very easily strip your laygear or 2nd /3rd gear.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/DAM4931.aspx?ReturnUrl=/catalogues/classic/Classic~Mechanical~Parts~Manual~1959-1985/Transmission~~Gearshift/4~Synchro~Gears~1979~on~with~18MM~Nose~Mainshaft.aspx?1~4~38|Back%20to%20catalogue

Terry
13: "I am the scariest number."
666: "No, I am the scariest number."
2020: "Hold my beer and watch this."

Cujo. 1999 - 2016