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Author Topic: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up  (Read 285 times)

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Maystro

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Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« on: June 28, 2020, 08:33:59 PM »


Okay finally got the radiator converted from rear facing to front facing because their are all these nice new alloy rads available.  Custom fabrication of the thermo bracket was needed.  Also I made up new passenger side stabiliser bar bulk head bracket because the bulk head was cracked.  This sucker isn't going anywhere.  Thanks to @spiders advise. 
Anyway back to my problem.  It won't start. 
I did put a totally recond head  and new needle and seat in the fuel bowl. 
I also have a electronic distributor and new coil to go in but I haven't put it in yet.   I didn't want to confuse things and haven't installed yet.
It has taken me 3 months to do this work and have forgotten how the fuel lines were.  There is an open pipe next to where the main fuel pipe goes in I think?  Have I got this plumbed right and what is that other open pipe?
Thanks   

moemoke

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 10:43:55 PM »
you need to block off the 1/2 inch plastic pipe on the carby or plumb it to one of the crankcase vents, it wont start the way it is.
1976 Moke 1275cc (Dynky),
1976 Moke(Scarlet) current project,
1974 Moke with Suzuki GTI motor (project), 
1975 Moke rust bucket,
1967 Moke rust bucket

Terry

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2020, 09:09:56 AM »
Hi,

I agree with Moe, the pipe he is talking about is the dirty plastic outlet just near the float bowl.

And I would look at turning the float bowl lid around so that the fuel pipe is over the back, away from the manifold.

And when you do get it up and running I would suggest you cut your pretty blue heater hose and join it to each end of the small pipes coming out each side of your inlet manifold so that the water flows through it as it is designed to. It is also better to run with the heater valve open all the time to keep the water cycling through the heater core all the time.

Terry
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is.


Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Maystro

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2020, 02:48:46 PM »
Hi,  thanks guys.  Come to think of it their was a extra hose left over which would fit that white outlet.
I'm not sure if you can see it from the photo but their is another smaller outlet coming off the fuel bowel next to the main fuel inlet connector.  This is unplugged also.  Is this suppose to be connected to anything?

Terry I was unsure about connecting the blue hose to the inlet manifold because I thought it might heat up the air going into the carby which I don't really need living in Townsville.
What do you guys think.
Thanks Brad.

Terry

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2020, 05:47:59 PM »
Hi,

The little piece of pipe you have left over probably went from the carby to the rocker cover, which looks like you have replaced and it doesn't have a outlet. In the cap of the rocker cover you have there is a small hole in the centre of the cap, that is where the air goes in.

Over the back of the engine under the engine pipes there should be a tappet cover plate that has a small canister, an open pipe, a a crimped pipe or just a blank plate. This is where the pipe from the carby should be coming from.

Connecting the hose to the inlet pipes probably wont make a big difference either way in your climate, if you do or you don't, but I would connect them to make it look right and to stop potential for the air fuel mist forming droplets on the way through the manifold which is why you warm them up.

Terry
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is.


Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Maystro

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2020, 08:21:27 PM »
Hi Terry,

Yeah over the years I have slowly got got rid of all the emission crap including the charcoal canister....hope no greenys listening?  Your right that left over hose I had went from the white plastic pipe to the crankcase breather which I have on the back of the block on one of those tappet plates which come in handy when you dislodge a cam lifter. 

Tonight I pulled a spark lead off and connected to another plug and grounded on the block and their was no spark, that I could see.  So I put on a new gold sport coil and I found a spark doing the same thing but it was dark by this time so it was easier to see the spark.  Still no go.  The spark wasn't that quick though.  It only sparked about every 2 secs.  Is this normal?  I guess it was only cranking over. 

Is their a way to test if the fuel from the full fuel bowl is getting to the cylinder head?

Thanks, I'm not a happy Moker when I'm grounded.


Terry

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2020, 10:11:44 PM »
Hi,

If you take the bell off the carby and then remove the piston you should be able to see the fuel sitting at or just below the top of the brass jet tube. If there is fuel there then you should be getting fuel into the air stream. You could also remove a spark plug and plug your hand near the outlet and see if you get fuel on your hand when you turn over things.

The extra outlet on the carby float bowl lid is an overflow that allows any build up of fuel to be pushed out to the charcoal canister that you don't have anymore. You should only see fuel coming out onto your exhaust manifold when the float needle and seat doesn't seal properly.

Put the hose back on the carby across to the cover plate and it will reduce the excess air messing up your mixture.

The spark should only appear every second cycle of the engine so 2 seconds sounds a little long between sparks. Put a bit of tape on a fan blade so you can count cycles.

Terry
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is.


Cujo. 1999 - 2016

moemoke

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2020, 10:32:16 PM »
Do you have the correct gap in the points? if you have a small or no gap then you will get no spark.

to check for fuel, have a look in the float bowl when you take it off to turn it around as Terry suggested, there should be some fuel in there,
there is a measurement that the level should be but I have forgotten what it is otherwise you need to check the float level by measuring gap
between top of float and underside of the float bowl top just when the fuel supply is cut off by the needle and seat, should be between 1/8" and 3/16" gap
Once you have the top back on the float bowl, take off the carby top, (three screws) and slowly lift it up, sometime the piston will come with it or sometimes it stays with carby, if piston comes with top be careful of needle, place it somewhere safe, look inside carby and fuel level should be just level with brass tube of the jet holder in centre of carby, a bit hard to check this with a mechanical fuel pump, Terry does start a car with it like this to check fuel flow but beware of back fires  :o 

damn it, spent ages typing this and Terry beat me.
1976 Moke 1275cc (Dynky),
1976 Moke(Scarlet) current project,
1974 Moke with Suzuki GTI motor (project), 
1975 Moke rust bucket,
1967 Moke rust bucket

Steam

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2020, 08:11:05 AM »
Check for correct firing order with leads cap etc, spark at plugs should be strong and blue whitish in colour.
Cheers, Dave

Maystro

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2020, 07:45:51 PM »
Hi guy's

Thanks  for your very informative answers.  I'll have a look tomorrow.  I'm pretty sure this is a fuel issue? 

Moe don't worry about Terry and piping you to the post, their is always a smarty in the class   ;)

Terry  were you having ago at me about removing my canister with the comment about the fuel will only go onto the exhaust manifold?  That doesn't sound like an ideal situation?  Bloody greenies  ;)

Just a quick extra question while the gurus are here.  The coil I removed had one of those big white ballast resistors on.  I did not put this on my new gold sports coil, do I still need this?   I'm guessing that ballast resistor was for my old coil and not the distributor? 

Brad.

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2020, 10:35:33 PM »
the correct coil for a moke doesn't need the resistor but maybe the previous one needed the resistor.
Bosch make 2 coils one is a GT40 coil with is suitable for a moke or the GT40R which requires a resistor.

From memory the resistor idea helps keep a coil cooler by limiting the power going through the coil I think it
gives 12volts when starting but drops back when car is running although if you use an GT40R without a
resistor the coil wont last very long, I think Terry has experience with this issue.
1976 Moke 1275cc (Dynky),
1976 Moke(Scarlet) current project,
1974 Moke with Suzuki GTI motor (project), 
1975 Moke rust bucket,
1967 Moke rust bucket

Steam

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2020, 08:54:37 AM »
Generally a coil is a 12v unit requiring 12v feed.
One requiring a ballast resistor is a lower voltage. say 9v.
the idea came about in the mid 1970's where a 9v coil was fitted with a ballast resistor, when craking to start the coil is fed with 12v to give a better start even though the battery is experiencing high load draw from starter.
 Once running the 12v is cut and the coil runs on 9 volts.
There is also some conjecture that a ballasted system may prolong the life of the points.
As Moemoke said, a GT40 is a 12v coil and does NOT need a resistor
A 12v standard coil should read @ 3 ohms across the small terminals
A ballast coil will read @ 1.5 ohms but some 12v high output coils for HEI system also read 1 to 1.5 ohms.
Cheers, Dave

Terry

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2020, 12:41:49 PM »
Hi,

if you don't have labels on the coils look at the base of the coil and it may have Resistor or Resistor Req. stamped on the base in which case you need to use a ballast resistor in the wiring.

Terry  were you having ago at me about removing my canister with the comment about the fuel will only go onto the exhaust manifold?  That doesn't sound like an ideal situation?  Bloody greenies  ;)

Not having a go at you, just saying where the fuel goes when there is a problem. Given that very few people still with a canister have any charcoal still in them means the fuel just runs out onto the paint work or sub frame if the overflow is connected up.

I don't have a choke on my DS so I have to open the bonnet to start the Moke of a morning, which people do comment on when they see me doing  it, but some of that is so that I can see such issues with the float overflow rather than blindly driving off with fuel dripping around the manifold. I have done that in past and can say it doesn't ignite the fuel, but it is not a nice feeling when you see it happening.

Terry
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is.


Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Terry

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2020, 12:57:20 PM »
Hi,

my understanding of the coils with a resistor is a bit different to the others.

A resistor coil operates at 8v rather than the normal 12v and that is why a ballast resistor is required to absorb the heat as it drops the 4v it has to lose to avoid cooking the coil and the contacts. The ballast resistor is just dumb piece of ceramic with a wire winding in it, there is no smarts or switching.

During cranking the starter motor can drag down the voltage to something less than 12v which if it is enough it will cause the coil to give off less of a spark if you have 12v coil. However if your coil normally operates at 8v, a GT40R for example, then drop in voltage during starting has to get lower than 8v before it affects the spark created by the coil.

One of the symptoms of a lower than required voltage in the coil is when you turn over an engine that wont start but fires up as soon has you turn the key back off the Start position, this is because the voltage goes back up while the engine is still rolling over. This is another reason why people fit Gemini starters that tend not drag down the voltage like a tired old Lucas would.

Terry
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is.


Cujo. 1999 - 2016

Maystro

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Re: Rad conversion complete but won't fire up
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2020, 08:32:34 PM »
Hi Guys,   thanks, I think. 
Lot's of info.
I got a pass in mechanics 101 but electrical well I haven't a clue except red is danger if your grounded. 
I think I will bite the bullet and install my new electronic distributor which was supposed to be matched to the gold sports coil I have already installed. 
I have herd about ballast resistor ignition set ups in later mini's.  My Moke  used the ballast resistor which was fitted by some old Pom mechanic who new his shit and said I needed it.  If I change the coil and dizzy to electronic, do I still need a ballast resistor.  Is their something in the wire loom or ignition that still requires this, surely not? 
Take the piss out of me Terry,  I deserve it.  My Dad gave this Moke to me about 15 years ago in great condition and I have let her go.  Trying to bring her back to life and learn how to do it myself.
Thinking about bringing the charcoal canister back into service because I still have all the original parts when Dad bought it brand new and seeming I live near the Bowen basin which is the biggest coal seam in the world, I should be able to find a coupe of black nuggets  :D