4WD Moke discussion

[spider]

Tim, thanks a heap! It's been quite a few years since I crawled under that contraption and I couldn't for the life of me remember if it had outboard Uni's or CVs on the rears, and as I vaugly recalled, it does not. In one of the hundreds of chats I've had with the owner over the past couple of months, I suggested to him that we should remove the engine again in say 5 000km so we could inspect the diff and these mods. 'Oh' he said and I'm like ?  'that might take a good few years'.

Turns out - as you have pointed out (and I also seem to recall) - that because of that rear end it handles very poorly and at time underirably, so it seldom gets driven.

Anyways, how the rear diff case is in this one, is infact how the factory also did them. Here's an article, which you maybe able to see the rear diff cap









The factory ones (as you've said) had the guts of front hubs welded to the rear swing arms, so the suspension system and geometry was much like the stock mokes. They actually rather nice to drive, well as nice as any other moke!

Now while the Australian Factory like to take all the credit and glory for dreaming this idea up and building them, the idea and construction of them is not (or wasn't at the time!) at all new. Leyland's Special Tuning dept in the UK first did it and in all fairness, the credit has to go to them, but, even then, I suspect that they got the idea from Issigonas's Ant - not sure on that.

Here's the car that ST built











It would seem that even they had exactly the same problems back then! and on 10" wheels!

You'll no doubt notice too that the gearsick comes through the fire wall and looks rater odd, just keep in mind that this was built some 2 years before the rodshift gearboxes were made at all, this one being based on a (supposedly stronger  ) remote shift gearbox.

I will give credit to Leyland Australia though for their clever development of the rear subframe & suspension as fitted to the Mokes, I think it is considerably better than that done by ST.

[Terry]

i think henry draper has a genuine 4x4 moke still, not positive tho, after he sold Northern mini parts i`m not sure what he kept or sold

Henry only has the gears and maybe the carrier and never had a complete 4wd Moke. I have been trying to get the gears from him for years for 'display purposes' but he is happy to hang on to them at the moment. Might be time to mention them again next time i see him, which is reasonably often.

Terry

[spider]

Matt, I actually didn't know that that clubbie ever existed until quite recently. Even then I doubted that it was an ST built car. I contacted Basil Wales and he was able to confirm to me that ST did build 1 and he said that it would only last 1 or 2 meetings before the front diff would let go. They rebuilt and ran it he thinks one more time until it let go again, at which time they parked it. He cannot confirm if in fact that car in the article was the one they built, although he says it could be. While it was a car he instructed his department to build, he wasn't involved in the hands on for the design or construction of it and he only remembers just seeing it a few times in the workshop. He was going to try to remember who was involved in the project and - if they were still alive - try to get some technical details on it for me. That was a while ago now, I haven't heard back from him, but I also know he's pretty busy, so I'd rather not bother the poor man.

Other than what's in that article, I don't know much else on it. The article - incorrectly (according to Basil) says that it was built out of a Moke 4WD that they built as a tug for use around the factory.

Thanks too for your kind comments 

I must also say a big thanks to the guy who kindly forwarded me that magazine article on the 4WD Clubbie a few years back.

Terry, Henry won't ever part with them diffs, but keep at him 

[Tim]

I'm getting a bit vague here, but from memory Watto's article mentioned that one of the prototypes went back to the UK for assessment, and no-one is sure what happened to it.


I was just reading in Jon Pressnell's book that the UK factory developed prototype 4WDs in 1963. They had to modify the gearbox and the gear lever came out really high with some kind of push-pull arrangement. It used a diff out of some ancient MG prototype (R-Type?).


Also I'm trying to track down the picture I've seen of an Ant gearbox. Its nothing like a Moke one. Its heaps bigger and has a transfer case built into it. Its so big that it has a hole right through it where the steering rack passes, its also angled backwards so that the engine block tilts back rather than being upright. Technically the ant was Morris 1100 based, not really Mini or  Moke derived.


Tim

[Terry]

I'm getting a bit vague here, but from memory Watto's article mentioned that one of the prototypes went back to the UK for assessment, and no-one is sure what happened to it.

A magazine article I have here from years ago the Project leader says the first prototype got cannobalised to make the second one which went to Port Darwin Motors, Des Nudl(?). Spider has  mentioned he has a Friend that has the other prototype out Bathurst way. So that makes at least three versions of what happened.

Terry

[spider]

Tim, I'd be super-interested in see what you have on the ANT. Awesome vehicle, killed off by stupid internal politics and lunatics. This is about all I have in the way of pics of the power unit.

A magazine article I have here from years ago the Project leader says the first prototype got cannobalised to make the second one which went to Port Darwin Motors, Des Nudl(?). Spider has  mentioned he has a Friend that has the other prototype out Bathurst way. So that makes at least three versions of what happened.

Terry

I do know but can't remember what happened to the one that was sent to the UK, I have a recollection that it came back here, but I've heard so many stories over the years that I just can't be sure which one is the true story! In my recollection, I think - not at all sure - that the one now in Perth is the one that was sent to the UK. The one that was reportedly caniblised was not, that is the one that went to a farm near Bathurst. Maybe the offical records or line was that it got canibised, maybe it ended up out of the factory through the back door so to speak, there are some questions that are best not asked!

A friend who work in the experimental dept was involved in the testing of both of the proto-types. He tells me that only 2 were built.

[Tim]

According to Watto there's an Ant in Australia currently being restored. Does anyone know where?


Tim

[spider]

According to Watto there's an Ant in Australia currently being restored. Does anyone know where?


Tim

Waa waa waa ? ? ? Really? How good is that! I didn't know there were any here. I have heard of 1 (or was it 2) that BMC sent to NZ and reportedly still there.

If there's one here, I'd love to see it, especially if it's in bits. Are you following this up with Watto at all Tim?

[Terry]

I do know but can't remember what happened to the one that was sent to the UK, I have a recollection that it came back here, but I've heard so many stories over the years that I just can't be sure which one is the true story! In my recollection, I think - not at all sure - that the one now in Perth is the one that was sent to the UK. The one that was reportedly caniblised was not, that is the one that went to a farm near Bathurst. Maybe the offical records or line was that it got canibised, maybe it ended up out of the factory through the back door so to speak, there are some questions that are best not asked!

The one the second one was the one that went to Darwin and is now in Perth and was offered to me in 1996 for $15k and I thought that was too much for a Moke with only a 100 or km on the clock. It hurts to think about it now. Des Nudl died and the Moke got donated to a local uni/tafe and left outside and that is what went to Perth.

Depends on how much was cannibalised from the first one to make the second one so I suppose how complete or incomplete is your friends one.  And there seems to be a few odd piece from the project floating around with people like Henry so how much was made and how much survived.

Terry

[spider]

The one the second one was the one that went to Darwin and is now in Perth and was offered to me in 1996 for $15k and I thought that was too much for a Moke with only a 100 or km on the clock. It hurts to think about it now. Des Nudl died and the Moke got donated to a local uni/tafe and left outside and that is what went to Perth.

Depends on how much was cannibalised from the first one to make the second one so I suppose how complete or incomplete is your friends one.  And there seems to be a few odd piece from the project floating around with people like Henry so how much was made and how much survived.

Terry

Interesting little history on the NT / Perth one. At $15K I would have jumped at it.

As far as I am aware, the first one was not touched, nothing removed from it to use in the second one. I've read various interviews with Ray Hapgood and he has said that it was pulled apart. This is wrong. Ray was the manager of the dept, true, but he had his hands quite full and wasn't always right up to speed with everything that was going on every day. How many of us have done stuff behind the bosses back? The guy who has it now (I've only met him once at his property) was an employee also in the experimental dept. No, I didn't ask how it was that he came to have it. I am aware that employees did buy odds and sods from the factory, mostly through a semi-offical back door, and sometimes with stuff-ups. eg, my friend Pete who worked there bought a new 1275 engine for his sprite from a batch they had there, however a week later, they asked for it back as they had bought it in from the UK for research and as such, did not pay duty on it. Pete got it duty free and that was why they asked for it back.

There where quite a few diffs sets made, mostly in various ratios from 3.9:1 to 4.7:1. It is only diff sets that Henry has. My friend who owns the Quadra also has a few sets (which I presently have in the workshop atm). These seem to be the only 4WD Factory bits kicking about.

Spider is it your intention to have it road registered?
      Smokey

Not sure which one your referring too, however the Quadra is road registered and yes, the one I'll be building will also be regoed.

Without rego, IMO, it ain't much good.

[Tim]

Waa waa waa ? ? ? Really? How good is that! I didn't know there were any here. I have heard of 1 (or was it 2) that BMC sent to NZ and reportedly still there.

If there's one here, I'd love to see it, especially if it's in bits. Are you following this up with Watto at all Tim?

Yeah, I keep reading his magazine every month, where he promised that he was going to have a full article on it when the restoration was complete. 

Depending on what you read one, two or three Ants were sent to Australia for evaluation. More sources say two, than one or three. There is at least one in NZ, I used to be in contact with the owner's son, many years ago.

Tim

[Tim]

...As far as I am aware, the first one was not touched, nothing removed from it to use in the second one. I've read various interviews with Ray Hapgood and he has said that it was pulled apart. This is wrong. Ray was the manager of the dept, true, but he had his hands quite full and wasn't always right up to speed with everything that was going on every day...

Its pretty clear that the 'facts' surrounding the 4wd prototypes are pretty sketchy. Its interesting that Watto used the moke 4wds as an example of half remembered details. On the UK Moke forum, he wrote :

...As a journalist I find that relying on people's memories from 30 or 40 years ago is fraught with danger. I had one engineer, who was the chief man involved with the 4WD Mokes in Australia, swear black and blue that they only made two. I asked him which of the two went to the UK for evaluation and he assured me that neither of them went to the UK. When I said I had copies of photos of one of the cars in an inspection bay at Longbridge, he said; "Oh. Maybe we did make more than two, then." It just shows that sometimes what people remember doesn't always match the physical evidence...

Tim

[spider]

One thing that Pete pointed out to me on the 4WD near Bathurst was the Body Number. It's prefix I do remember was YXE. It struck me as odd at the time and Pete did say that was the number they used in the Experimental Dept. That to me was a large key element to that Moke as to were it came from and left me in little doubt.

I've been think more about the one that was sent to the UK and while I did say earlier that I felt it was the one that is now in Perth - but wasn't sure, something's been nagging at me that in fact it was the eariler one ^ that was sent over.

Anyone know much about the one that is in Perth? MD, do you know the owner or where it is?

Tim, it does sound like a while since you've been in contact with the owner's son in NZ, are you able to contact him again? Any idea what condition that one is in?

What you've also pointed out about peoples long term recollection is quite right.

[Tim]

Spider, I've been through all my records and can't find the name of the NZ Ant owner. I stumbled across this though.





Its one of the factory cars with its diff out. There are a lot more photos, but mainly of the Quadra and the factory Mini in this thread on the Mk1 conversions forum


http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?t=3570&p=25102


Tim

[spider]

Tim, thanks again.

The pic you've put up is of the one in Perth. I remember about 2 or 3 (or 4!) years ago there where 3 or 4 various pics of it up on the web, but I've been unable to find them in recent times.

Funny that on the MK I performance site. I asked there about 18 months ago if anyone knew anything about that Clubbie, all I got back was blank stares. Good to see all the same and I'll have a really good look later today when I get some time. Some interesting and valuable pics of the Quadra too.